Several adjacent contentious thoughts
Jan. 29th, 2021 03:42 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
potofsoupI saw some fandom discourse on tumblr that boiled down to "why does the primary gay ship in this fandom go to such lengths to bash on the primary straight ship of this fandom? could it be because the primary straight ship includes a woman of color?" and the response being "why are you bashing on my ship I just came here to have fun I thought fandom is supposed to be a safe space :(" and the response to that was "um how do you think we feel in fandom, all the fucking time? :/"
And like, setting aside my natural response to this, which is "just ship all 3 of them together!!", and my emphatic second response to this, which is "yes, fandom can be racist sometimes, because we live in a racist society that makes it that much harder to (a) have major media franchises that create sympathetic poc characters, (b) get past the implicit bias that makes poc characters seem less sympathetic, and (c) have the dialogue, resources and spaces necessary to feel confident in writing poc characters without feeling like you're walking a high-stakes tightrope, AND IT SUCKS." Anyways, setting those 2 aside, my third response is that, wow, it's really an issue of what part of your identity you really want to explore and see reflected in fandom, isn't it? Like, I totally understand, if I'm a tiny baby gay living in a place where my race is not really challenged but my sexuality is very much so, I would see that gay ship and be like "omgggg I just want these people to kiss why must you make me feel bad for wanting that?" And if I'm constantly aware of my race and the lack of representation of my race in media (MCU I'm looking at you for having only Helen Cho wtf), I might see the primary straight ship and be like "oh yay a breath of fresh air a likeable poc who is a major character!! wait why does everyone just want to see pasty white dudes kissing." This is also adjacent to the perennial kinkshaming conversation, and honestly, as far as "deeply personal part of one's identity that doesn't usually get recognition or outlet to", kink counts in my book, alongside race, gender, sexual orientation, class, etc etc.
Anyway, thinking about that really sets into context the parts of fandom that I'm drawn to, and which parts of my identity it appeals to. Like, I love shipping Sam/Steve/Bucky because I love Sam and how good he is, and so I want to give him everything (and also squeeze in mentions of Asian ex-boyfriends because why not). On the other hand, when I'm dallying in certain corners of Stucky or Witcher fandom, it's because the character dynamics in that particular interpretation allow me to be honest about kink in a way the other ships don't allow. This also highlights the ways that my identity is dominant/accepted such that I don't feel a need to pursue it in fandom (being cis, upper-middle-class, American, etc).
Okay I'm going to take the kink thing a step further, without any research and completely pulling ideas out of thin air, which is that: I personally think that kink should be part of the asexual-demisexual-allosexual discussion. As in, some people have zero sexual attraction, and some people have sexual attraction but only where it pertains to certain specific kinks. I'm not saying all kinky people are not turned on by vanilla, just as ace people have a range of feelings about sex, but there's a certain particularity there that seems worth marking and integrating into the conversation. ... Is that something that people already talk about?
And like, setting aside my natural response to this, which is "just ship all 3 of them together!!", and my emphatic second response to this, which is "yes, fandom can be racist sometimes, because we live in a racist society that makes it that much harder to (a) have major media franchises that create sympathetic poc characters, (b) get past the implicit bias that makes poc characters seem less sympathetic, and (c) have the dialogue, resources and spaces necessary to feel confident in writing poc characters without feeling like you're walking a high-stakes tightrope, AND IT SUCKS." Anyways, setting those 2 aside, my third response is that, wow, it's really an issue of what part of your identity you really want to explore and see reflected in fandom, isn't it? Like, I totally understand, if I'm a tiny baby gay living in a place where my race is not really challenged but my sexuality is very much so, I would see that gay ship and be like "omgggg I just want these people to kiss why must you make me feel bad for wanting that?" And if I'm constantly aware of my race and the lack of representation of my race in media (MCU I'm looking at you for having only Helen Cho wtf), I might see the primary straight ship and be like "oh yay a breath of fresh air a likeable poc who is a major character!! wait why does everyone just want to see pasty white dudes kissing." This is also adjacent to the perennial kinkshaming conversation, and honestly, as far as "deeply personal part of one's identity that doesn't usually get recognition or outlet to", kink counts in my book, alongside race, gender, sexual orientation, class, etc etc.
Anyway, thinking about that really sets into context the parts of fandom that I'm drawn to, and which parts of my identity it appeals to. Like, I love shipping Sam/Steve/Bucky because I love Sam and how good he is, and so I want to give him everything (and also squeeze in mentions of Asian ex-boyfriends because why not). On the other hand, when I'm dallying in certain corners of Stucky or Witcher fandom, it's because the character dynamics in that particular interpretation allow me to be honest about kink in a way the other ships don't allow. This also highlights the ways that my identity is dominant/accepted such that I don't feel a need to pursue it in fandom (being cis, upper-middle-class, American, etc).
Okay I'm going to take the kink thing a step further, without any research and completely pulling ideas out of thin air, which is that: I personally think that kink should be part of the asexual-demisexual-allosexual discussion. As in, some people have zero sexual attraction, and some people have sexual attraction but only where it pertains to certain specific kinks. I'm not saying all kinky people are not turned on by vanilla, just as ace people have a range of feelings about sex, but there's a certain particularity there that seems worth marking and integrating into the conversation. ... Is that something that people already talk about?
no subject
Date: 2021-01-30 01:39 am (UTC)I think it should be too, and long ago when I was just getting into Alternate SexualitiesTM kink was in there and then it... went away or something.
also I love this analysis. *bookmarks*
no subject
Date: 2021-01-30 02:06 am (UTC):/ at the fact that it went away. :////////
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Date: 2021-01-30 02:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-01-30 07:26 pm (UTC)thank you! <3
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Date: 2021-01-30 12:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-01-30 07:26 pm (UTC):thumbsup: yussssss
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Date: 2021-02-03 05:16 pm (UTC)"Why does popular gay ship bash on popular straight ship?" sounds like a very, how to put this, fandom newbie question to me. (Tho to be fair most people on tumblr look like newbies to me.) Slashers have hated on het for yonks. In particular, if the het ship is canon, there will be massive amounts of bashing on both the het ship and the woman in that ship. Traditionally, I recall this being blamed on heteronormativity and misogyny, which have always been painful for a lot of slashers to deal with. But given that the phenomenon is so traditionally common, I really don't feel like we have to reach for racism as an explanation.
I definitely do think kink should be part of the sexuality discussion, perhaps even to the point of considering it a component of sexual orientation (like orientation, it seems to show up early, be consistent throughout one's life, sometimes even overpowers other aspects of sexual orientation, etc). I additionally think of kink as a part of the "queer" umbrella--iirc it used to be, or was close to being there. It certainly was part of the sex positivity movement we got out of the AIDS crisis, though that movement's not been doing as hot as it once was, on tumblr especially.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-10 06:09 am (UTC)Hence, this post.
I prefer thinking of kink as part of the asexual/demisexual/allosexual spectrum instead of the sexual orientation spectrum, mostly because I think of the former as "whether/when you want to have sex" and the latter as "who you'd like to sex/romance with." For me, personally, I am pretty bi/pansexual, as in, I'm happy to kiss and have sex with whichever gender. However, the degree to which I want to have sex really depends on the type of sex it is -- I feel pretty ace/neutral when it comes to vanilla sex, for example. Like, I don't mind it, so I'm not sex-repulsed, just sex-bored.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-10 07:34 am (UTC)But of course there's the additional "two wrongs don't make a right" element: if you (general you) feel hurt or alienated in fandom by others bashing your ship, doing the same to them doesn't fix that.
RE: kink, yes--I think of it all as points on a many-dimensional graph rather than spectrums per se. For example I am bi/pan, ace, and kinky--the kinkiness doesn't override the aceness entirely (rather unfortunately), but it can boost my interest. In stories, where I'm most comfortable sexually, the right kink has been known to cover up for all kinds of things that would otherwise be squicks.