Witcher and The Untamed
Jul. 18th, 2020 01:09 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
potofsoupSummer is when I look for shows to watch while drawing, and even though I have less time to draw this summer than I'd hoped, I am still managing a couple hours a week. So, since half of my Cap fandom friends seems to have migrated to the Witcher and the other half to The Untamed, I decided to give both of them a shot.
The Witcher is only 8 episodes, so I started with that. At first, I was like "destiny, ew", and tbh, I was bored by Ciri's third of the story (felt a lot like medieval misery tourism). But Geralt definitely grew on me as a character -- I love his sense of duty, his kindness in spite of everything, and how world-weary he is. Also, I absolutely *love* his relationship with Jaskier *and* his relationship with Yennefer. Jaskier is a nice foil for Geralt in so many ways, but also his loyalty and persistence and dedication to his craft are all very admirable things that link the two together. And Geralt/Yen! Oh wow the smoldering glances, the way they just seem to understand each other at first meeting -- it's like they've both built up very similar armor to travel through the world, and so they can just see right past that and find the person underneath. But at the same time, that's too much intensity and vulnerability, so it's a sometimes food, like cookies. (Wow that analogy got away from me -- I was going for something about being burnt by the sun, but I guess I had cookies on the brain.) Anyways, yes. Very much behind these ships. I was also impressed that the show had a *lot* of interesting women, and an ample # of POC (no whitewashing of medieval Europe!!) Tissaia and Fringilla and Yennefer and Calanthe are all power players, and each flawed in interesting ways. Anyways, despite my dislike of DESTINY!!!!! stuff, the character stuff is really solid, and the world, if a bit on the grimdark side (please stop trying to emulate GoT by having absolute massacre during wartime, you gotta leave people around to actually maintain economic activity), still has some cool monsters and a nice dose of diversity.
I don't particularly have time to do new fandom stuff rn, but definitely won't say no to fic recs. :)
The Untamed is much longer, at 50 episodes. I've found that watching it on Youtube is pretty rad because I can have both Chinese and English subtitles on. I can read the Chinese subtitles as needed (I'm someone who grew up with same language subtitling, and basically I can't watch something unless I can turn on the subtitles -- it just makes things soooo much easier), and if I want to know what fandom is going to call something, I can see what the English subtitles say. (Like, 云深不知处 is apparently Cloud Recesses...?) I'm on episode 11 or 12, and I've also gone ahead and read episode summaries* for the rest of the show, so I've got a general sense of how the rest of it will go. Thus far, I'm... not sure why it's so popular? Like, it's obviously crazy popular in China -- one of the construction machines during the 6-day hospital build was called 蓝忘机, and also the main characters' names and locations are actual words in my Chinese input. Like, I can type weiwuxian and there it is: 魏无羡. Boom. Plus they made an anime of the story before the TV show. So. Obviously A THING. But thus far it just seems like a pretty standard wuxia story? There's some scheming and politicking. The main character is a good guy who gets cast as a bad guy due to ::waves hand:: Events. (like 笑傲江湖 or 神雕侠侣) Things that the older generation does causes trouble for the younger generation. (天龙八部, for example). There's a macguffin that grants ultimate power. (倚天屠龙记 anyone?) There's a lot of "what proper gentlemen should do" stuff, which you *know* is going to be gently questioned, but not ultimately upended (no son of a peasant is going to end up being the ruler of all Jianghu by scratching his butt and wielding a pitchfork.) Like, even something like 侠客行 or 鹿鼎记 deconstructs the genre a bit, but thus far, it's pretty squarely middle-of-the-road. All the men are handsome and well-educated. The Wen sons are cartoonishly evil. There aren't even good 女侠 type main character -- 温情 is mostly a doctor, 虞夫人 is the petty mom, and 江厌离 is the big sister who doesn't really fight. I think part of the problem for me, is that the bad guys aren't particularly exciting? Like, Alexander Pierce is an interesting antagonist. 温晁 and 薛洋 just seem generically evil-for-evils' sake. 苏涉 could have been an interesting look at how the major families treat outsider disciples, but I'm guessing it won't be. I guess 金光瑶 is somewhat interesting, but ultimately he just seems ... petty? And why can't a prostitute's son make it to the top through non-evil, non-incestuous means? One could argue that the difference between 金光瑶 and 魏无羡 is really just that one was born of a prostitute and the other came from a "good family", and therefore got treated differently in these houses that claim to be "honorable" and "cultured," but of course 金光瑶 is going to be weak-willed and petty and selfish, and 魏无羡 is going to be honorable and kind and self-sacrificial.
Anyway, I'm definitely enjoying the relationship dynamics between Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng. Lan Wangji is hilarious, it must have been so much fun to write his dialogue and be like "how do I say this in 3 syllables or less?" And just as Jaskier is a good foil for Geralt, Wei Wuxian is a good foil for Lan Wangji -- they're both very principled people, but show it so differently. Jiang Cheng is just hilarious in his bullheaded-ness. Maybe I need to jump ahead. I'm at the end of episode 11, and I think what comes next is a few episodes of the good guys being tortured by the bad guys ("And then the Fire Nation attacked"), which is the sort of stuff that leaves me wondering why I want to care about all these royalty. What is the Wen family doing to maintain the allegiances of ... anyone, really? What was their original claim to being 仙督? Are their peasants happier? Is their martial art better than anyone else's? Are there just more of them? Where is the fucking Emperor? Or even a governor? I'm pretty sure 不夜天 is breaking, like, 100 zoning codes. (Yes, I know it's 仙侠, which is on the opposite end of my preferred wuxia type, but still.)
Anyways, I'd like to understand what people find so exciting about The Untamed.
-------
* Yes, I always spoil myself on the plot of whatever I'm watching -- it allows me to enjoy the show more. The best way I've found to explain this to people who are appalled is that it's like watching a movie for the 2nd time -- knowing the broad strokes of what's going to happen lets me enjoy the details more.
The Witcher is only 8 episodes, so I started with that. At first, I was like "destiny, ew", and tbh, I was bored by Ciri's third of the story (felt a lot like medieval misery tourism). But Geralt definitely grew on me as a character -- I love his sense of duty, his kindness in spite of everything, and how world-weary he is. Also, I absolutely *love* his relationship with Jaskier *and* his relationship with Yennefer. Jaskier is a nice foil for Geralt in so many ways, but also his loyalty and persistence and dedication to his craft are all very admirable things that link the two together. And Geralt/Yen! Oh wow the smoldering glances, the way they just seem to understand each other at first meeting -- it's like they've both built up very similar armor to travel through the world, and so they can just see right past that and find the person underneath. But at the same time, that's too much intensity and vulnerability, so it's a sometimes food, like cookies. (Wow that analogy got away from me -- I was going for something about being burnt by the sun, but I guess I had cookies on the brain.) Anyways, yes. Very much behind these ships. I was also impressed that the show had a *lot* of interesting women, and an ample # of POC (no whitewashing of medieval Europe!!) Tissaia and Fringilla and Yennefer and Calanthe are all power players, and each flawed in interesting ways. Anyways, despite my dislike of DESTINY!!!!! stuff, the character stuff is really solid, and the world, if a bit on the grimdark side (please stop trying to emulate GoT by having absolute massacre during wartime, you gotta leave people around to actually maintain economic activity), still has some cool monsters and a nice dose of diversity.
I don't particularly have time to do new fandom stuff rn, but definitely won't say no to fic recs. :)
The Untamed is much longer, at 50 episodes. I've found that watching it on Youtube is pretty rad because I can have both Chinese and English subtitles on. I can read the Chinese subtitles as needed (I'm someone who grew up with same language subtitling, and basically I can't watch something unless I can turn on the subtitles -- it just makes things soooo much easier), and if I want to know what fandom is going to call something, I can see what the English subtitles say. (Like, 云深不知处 is apparently Cloud Recesses...?) I'm on episode 11 or 12, and I've also gone ahead and read episode summaries* for the rest of the show, so I've got a general sense of how the rest of it will go. Thus far, I'm... not sure why it's so popular? Like, it's obviously crazy popular in China -- one of the construction machines during the 6-day hospital build was called 蓝忘机, and also the main characters' names and locations are actual words in my Chinese input. Like, I can type weiwuxian and there it is: 魏无羡. Boom. Plus they made an anime of the story before the TV show. So. Obviously A THING. But thus far it just seems like a pretty standard wuxia story? There's some scheming and politicking. The main character is a good guy who gets cast as a bad guy due to ::waves hand:: Events. (like 笑傲江湖 or 神雕侠侣) Things that the older generation does causes trouble for the younger generation. (天龙八部, for example). There's a macguffin that grants ultimate power. (倚天屠龙记 anyone?) There's a lot of "what proper gentlemen should do" stuff, which you *know* is going to be gently questioned, but not ultimately upended (no son of a peasant is going to end up being the ruler of all Jianghu by scratching his butt and wielding a pitchfork.) Like, even something like 侠客行 or 鹿鼎记 deconstructs the genre a bit, but thus far, it's pretty squarely middle-of-the-road. All the men are handsome and well-educated. The Wen sons are cartoonishly evil. There aren't even good 女侠 type main character -- 温情 is mostly a doctor, 虞夫人 is the petty mom, and 江厌离 is the big sister who doesn't really fight. I think part of the problem for me, is that the bad guys aren't particularly exciting? Like, Alexander Pierce is an interesting antagonist. 温晁 and 薛洋 just seem generically evil-for-evils' sake. 苏涉 could have been an interesting look at how the major families treat outsider disciples, but I'm guessing it won't be. I guess 金光瑶 is somewhat interesting, but ultimately he just seems ... petty? And why can't a prostitute's son make it to the top through non-evil, non-incestuous means? One could argue that the difference between 金光瑶 and 魏无羡 is really just that one was born of a prostitute and the other came from a "good family", and therefore got treated differently in these houses that claim to be "honorable" and "cultured," but of course 金光瑶 is going to be weak-willed and petty and selfish, and 魏无羡 is going to be honorable and kind and self-sacrificial.
Anyway, I'm definitely enjoying the relationship dynamics between Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng. Lan Wangji is hilarious, it must have been so much fun to write his dialogue and be like "how do I say this in 3 syllables or less?" And just as Jaskier is a good foil for Geralt, Wei Wuxian is a good foil for Lan Wangji -- they're both very principled people, but show it so differently. Jiang Cheng is just hilarious in his bullheaded-ness. Maybe I need to jump ahead. I'm at the end of episode 11, and I think what comes next is a few episodes of the good guys being tortured by the bad guys ("And then the Fire Nation attacked"), which is the sort of stuff that leaves me wondering why I want to care about all these royalty. What is the Wen family doing to maintain the allegiances of ... anyone, really? What was their original claim to being 仙督? Are their peasants happier? Is their martial art better than anyone else's? Are there just more of them? Where is the fucking Emperor? Or even a governor? I'm pretty sure 不夜天 is breaking, like, 100 zoning codes. (Yes, I know it's 仙侠, which is on the opposite end of my preferred wuxia type, but still.)
Anyways, I'd like to understand what people find so exciting about The Untamed.
-------
* Yes, I always spoil myself on the plot of whatever I'm watching -- it allows me to enjoy the show more. The best way I've found to explain this to people who are appalled is that it's like watching a movie for the 2nd time -- knowing the broad strokes of what's going to happen lets me enjoy the details more.
no subject
Date: 2020-07-18 03:12 pm (UTC)Wei Wuxian is a good foil for Lan Wangji -- they're both very principled people, but show it so differently. Jiang Cheng is just hilarious in his bullheaded-ness
Yeah, *this* is what I love most. I have a thing for characters with intergrity, and WWX and LWJ are kind of magic together, and their entire thing is what made me fall in love with the show. (Plus, I have an unapologetic Jiang Cheng fixation. *g*)
As someone who grew up on wuxia films, but not so much xianxia, I found a lot of it new and interesting, and enjoyed getting into the world building aspect. I love the scenery, and the personality of each sect. Sort of like how much I enjoy Harry Potter world, or the lore of Avatar: The Last Airbender. It's just pleasing to me. :)
(Also, all those Behind The Scenes videos with the two leads interacting with one another are beyond adorable, and definitely contributed to my obsession. <3)
I'd like to understand what people find so exciting about The Untamed.
Oh, one other thing! This is more of a personal nature, but I was delighted to find a show with (1) ancient fantasy elements, (2) overtly slashy feels, and also (3) not revolving around Western or Colonial influences. Also, I'm not Chinese, but being Indian and Hindu, it was cool to find a lot of familiar beats in terms of Eastern tradition, that I don't normally see in my Western media fandoms. Like the bowing to elders, lighting incense, meditation, forehead dot, etc., and it sort of gave me this instant connection, I guess.
no subject
Date: 2020-07-18 05:15 pm (UTC)I guess this is my problem with a lot of Chinese stories, which is that a lot of them have the "mob wrongfully accuses x person" scene, and it's always shown has heartrending, (and if it's a social commentary story, the wrong might never be righted!) But anyway, I feel frustrated that it's usually fixed by society being like "oopsie! now that we know better, you're okay!" and not like "hmmm, maybe mob behavior is bad? maybe we're defining good and evil in the wrong way?" I feel like even Nezha does a better job of questioning these things.
Hmm.... it may be that I'm too distant from mainstream Chinese society and therefore too critical of its societal commentary and story beats, and at the same time, I'm too familiar with this cultural stuff to get excited about the presence of zithers and calligraphy? Like, when I see that stuff, I'm just like "but this is just re-affirming the cultural importance of the gentry class, where are the peasants?" or "where are the multiple wives? where is the 4 generations in one household? who is actually grinding the inkstone so you can write calligraphy?" Maybe I just don't like the sort of high fantasy that oversimplifies society, and xianxia stuff is not an exception? I definitely liked the social commentary in the Guardian novel, even though I haven't watched the TV. What is it about Chinese shows that make me care more about the social commentary aspect rather than character interactions?
Like, right now, the 2 stories that I'd most want to write is one that posits an alternative version where Jin Guangyao is actually a good person because he's been treated fairly, and one where all the drama is seen through a servant's perspective (who is wondering if they should report this to the local government)
no subject
Date: 2020-07-18 05:35 pm (UTC)does it actually get properly questioned and upended? Does society change?
Society doesn't change, but one character does. (And certain fanfics do build upon that towards a larger systemic change.)
What is it about Chinese shows that make me care more about the social commentary aspect rather than character interactions?
Based on your perspective, that makes total sense to me.
In fact, that's the main reason I can't stand the Indian soap operas my parents watch. They see the drama, the costumes and the story, but all I see are the overarching problems with poverty, class and prejudice in India today. :/
no subject
Date: 2020-07-21 02:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-07-21 02:50 am (UTC)Which is to say: I am 100% useless for Geralt/Yennefer recs. But I hang out in the Discord whose core membership is former HTP folk (we call it Trash Morhen) and our sort of collective favorite idfic is "The Accidental Warlord and His Pack" which is an AU in which Geralt decides to take a pro-active approach to solving the Continent's problems by killing shitty kings and noblemen and therefore accidentally kinda conquering a huge swathe of the north--and then 19-year-old Jaskier is sent to him as tribute from the court of Redania, which believes all the very worst rumors about the witcher tyrant. https://archiveofourown.org/series/1683661
Another Trash Morhen approved series is "Even Then (You'll Still Be Mine)" which is proper trash party hurt/comfort by brighteyedjill--Geralt has been captured by a horrible villain and tortured and raped and cursed and has amnesia and then, of course, Jaskier has to pose as a horrible nobleman to rescue him, like. You have read this scenario as HTP fic at least five times. It's great. :D (ETA: I guess it would be more helpful with an actual link? https://archiveofourown.org/series/1648981)
Oh and Just Add Some Friction is some really delicious prolonged trope-subverting sex pollen fic: https://archiveofourown.org/works/22775572
And I've only read the first couple of stories in the series, but Meet Death Sitting by bomberqueen17 is pretty great and really digs into the fact that Jaskier is, by the time Ciri and Geralt find each other, forty-odd years old and getting tired of this bullshit, and also just has a lot of cool bits of characterization/worldbuilding re: Geralt being a hundred years old: https://archiveofourown.org/works/22572403
no subject
Date: 2020-07-23 05:01 am (UTC)Relatedly, your fic has Geralt/Emhyr? Thus far in the show they really haven't interacted, and my reading of the wikipedia book summaries seem to show them as pretty antagonistic -- is their relationship a game thing?
I've read Jill's fic! And already have Meet Death Sitting open in a tab, because I'm all about a Jaskier who's like "what's up with all you immortals, cut me a break." And the other recs look delicious as well! <333
Trash Morhen! ahahahahaha that's beautiful!
no subject
Date: 2020-07-23 05:26 am (UTC)But yeah, them being shippable in an even remotely happy way is 100% a game thing--so, uh, spoilers! Actually they HAVE interacted in the show, because it is revealed at the VERY end of the books that Emhyr is in fact Duny The Hedgehog Prince, having been exiled and cursed when his father the Emperor of Nilfgaard was deposed, and then when Ciri was four or five, faked his death and went back to Nilfgaard to reclaim his throne; he meant to fake the whole family's deaths but Pavetta figured out something weird was going on and secretly sent Ciri home and then wound up dying as she and Emhyr were having the resultant fight on a ship in the middle of a storm, so. Oops. And then everything Emhyr does throughout the books that pits him against Geralt is his attempt to get Ciri back because he believes he has to have her in order for the prophecy about someone of their bloodline saving the world to work out.
Anyway, the thing where Emhyr is Ciri's dad and Geralt is ALSO Ciri's dad is the backbone of the plot of Witcher 3--Emhyr summons Geralt to find Ciri because she's in danger, and Geralt agrees to do it, and then the entire crux of the game in terms of which ending you get is basically about how good a dad Geralt is to Ciri (including whether or not she feels like Emhyr bought him off to get her back) which in turn leads to Ciri being able to save the world or not.
But one of the endings you can get, after all that, is that Emhyr contacts Ciri and asks her to come to Nilfgaard and be his heir, and he abdicates in her favor in relatively short order so Ciri gets to rule half the continent--and meanwhile her two dads have lots of opportunities to get thrown together and try to get along for her sake. That's basically the scenario that 90% of Emhyr/Geralt is based on.
Having said all that it's fairly hypocritical to say that I cannot stand Yen and Geralt's canonically shitty relationship, but, uh, that. I guess at least canon does not want me to believe Emhyr and Geralt are Destined True Love, so I don't mind ficcing them into a relationship, but Yen and Geralt are Destined True Love and they're... like that about it.
The whole djinn thing--I don't know how clearly it comes across especially without having read the story, but in the book version of it, Yen is just... mind controlling a whole bunch of people in that town for her own entertainment, including Geralt, including putting Geralt in a situation where he might have killed people or been killed without being aware of what he was doing. And then the fucking Last Wish leaves them soul-bonded--against Yennefer's will, because of Geralt's impulsive last-ditch effort to save her--which means that they never really get to choose whether to be in a relationship or not, and then the entire narrative is that they are Destined True Love, from that starting point, which. Ugh. In the book their subsequent relationship includes a lot of Yen steamrolling Geralt and being physically abusive to him and in general the dynamic of the relationship seems to be that Yen does whatever the fuck she wants and Geralt puts up with it until he can't anymore, then he leaves, and then he comes back when he can't bear being away from her anymore and the cycle starts again.
That said, my feelings about Jaskier/Dandelion before the Netflix show were "needs to be beaten to death with his own lute" and I am really mostly fond of this version of Jaskier, so. This is the Yen I hate the least of all versions of her! Lauren Hissrich invented HER ENTIRE PAST to make her more sympathetic, which helps! (None of that is in the books, she just shows up as the Yen you get in the djinn episode, and she's just.... like that.) And I haven't read far enough in the books to get to the part where Yen grows as a person and their relationship gets less shitty, so presumably that is coming. But I still just hate the whole djinn story so much, and I really need to just skip it and watch the dragon one.
no subject
Date: 2020-07-24 07:07 am (UTC)Re: Geralt/Yennefer -- oof, I can see how much more manipulative Yennefer would seem without that backstory. The whole mind control aspect of the djinn episode is ... not great. It's kind of framed as "Yennefer lashing out at society and feelings of being worthless" -- Tissaia visits Yen being like "return to the Council" and Yen is like "fuck all y'all, I gave my life and my womb to this illusion of success and it was all a lie, so I'm just gonna try for raw power now," and Geralt is like "wtf why are you doing this, you're chasing the wrong thing." And then they have hatesex. Or "we see too much of our own flaws and insecurities mirrored in each other" sex. But yeah, skip to the dragon episode? I really HATE all of the ~~Destiny!!!~~ stuff so... definitely not looking forward to there being more of that. It almost made me not want to watch past episode 1, tbh, and I've been pretty deliberately ignoring the destiny a-plot and focusing on some good character moments. (Tissaia telling Yen to use her misery to power her magic is a very interesting character turn that I'd like to see followed-up in the future)
Oh! Speaking of ignoring destiny stuff, I really liked the Accidental Warlord 'verse! It's like, getting to read all these great characters, abundant Found Family stuff and medieval fantasy flavor, *without* all the dire Fall of Cintra drama and the Destiny stuff. And instead, having the more egalitarian Witchers take on nobility and classism! Daring to propose that everyone should be treated with basic decency and respect! Frank communications about relationships! YES this is the type of bolstering story I need at a moment where, well, politics is being shit. Anyways, many thanks for the rec.
(Have also read the sex pollen fic -- much respect at navigating all of the nuanced gradations of consent!)
no subject
Date: 2020-07-23 04:52 am (UTC)